Comments on: The Age of Innocence: In response to DP’s comment below

By: The Store: Third Chat « We Came Along with a Hammer

The Store: Third Chat « We Came Along with a Hammer — Thu, 25 Mar 2010 03:06:17 +0000

[...] like that interesting. Awkward. Let me rephrase – I mean, kind of in the sense we touched on way back when we talked about the Age of Innocence – because media from back then never really show [...]

By: Diablevert

Diablevert — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 16:37:35 +0000

First off, thanks for coming back! It’s fun to have a chance to chat about these books, especially some of the more obscure ones….

I think that both of them are uninterested in affairs that are largely physical. The suggestion late in the book that Ellen “come once to you [Newland]” is clearly disturbing to them both…Newland seems to know that, having been intimate with one another, he would wield control over her.

I think that that’s true. Each definitely wants more from the other than just sex. But reflecting on it now, at this distance, I do think that they want sex. Newland is clearly physically attracted to the Countess, and I think she to him. They’re soulmates, not just BFFs. I read their hesitation and doubt over consummating their love as more tied up with the moral code of their class…the reason Newland would control her in such a situation is that, if it became known they were having an affair, she would lose the what’s left of her reputation and be entirely dependent on him. She’s already on shaky ground, having separated from her husband; to make rumors truths would make her a persona non grata entirely. And I think each of them has internalized that moral code; both Newland and Countess feel that if she were to sleep with him with no chance of their being able to be together, she would be disgracing herself, and thereby besmirching their love. So I think you’re right, that because they’re about more than the physical, they choose not to indulge in the physical act, but I would argue that it’s not that they don’t care/don’t desire sex but because it would violate their own ethical codes. They would feel they had sinned, and they don’t want any such feeling of shame to cloud their love. Least that’s my take. I wonder if Penny feels different….

By: jwrosenzweig

jwrosenzweig — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 05:07:09 +0000

I agree with a lot of what you say here, but regarding Ellen and Newland’s level of passion for each other, I think that both of them are uninterested in affairs that are largely physical. The suggestion late in the book that Ellen “come once to you [Newland]” is clearly disturbing to them both…Newland seems to know that, having been intimate with one another, he would wield control over her. And yet he doesn’t want that–that’s not what he sees in her, what he wants from her. I assumed this was in part because they’d both had physical affairs in the past, but I might not be right. It didn’t strike me as unnatural, though….it seemed consistent with who they were and what they wanted out of life, that what mattered most to them was to be with each other. Wharton makes a big deal out of the fact that Newland always forgets her appearance: I think it’s because she really does see him as in love with the idea of Ellen (if we want to be negative about it) or with Ellen on a spiritual/soul level (if we want to put the best possible spin on it). I don’t know if that makes the book anti-sexuality…I don’t think so, but I don’t know how I’d defend that perspective.

And I have to say, I think “innocence” for Wharton is not at all connected to sex (at least, in this book), and connected very much to the facades worn by society folk like May, and the van der Luydens, and the rest. They pretend to have no knowledge of evil; they pretend to be kind and welcoming; they pretend constantly, establishing happy innocent images of themselves (especially the women, it seems) while being real humans underneath. That’s what frustrates Newland about everyone but Ellen, in my opinion.